Upon Stats Arguement
I am still working out my full answer, but while I do...does Zone rating factor in only ground balls? Does range factor incorporate a subjective analysis by an observer as to the type of hit? Should the Bill James panel carry equal weight to a survey of the coaches and managers who watch each play with more on the line than legitimizing a theory created to sell books? Can you tell me any shortstop's range factor or zone rating without looking it up?
More to come
posted by Charlie at 12:11 AM
5 Comments:
Don't worry Charlie. While the evidence shows that Mr. Intangible doesn't get to many groundballs, it is undisputed that he leads the league in contrived fist pumps designed to display his leadership abilities. And waht's more important? Recording outs or looking like a leader?
Karl
Fist pumps neither add to nor detract from Jeter's fielding or leadership. Pumping his fist is the same as Jose Lima or Frankie Rodriguez stomping on the mound and yelling when they pitch; annoying to people who don't like them.
How many games do you watch and say "Man, the Yankees would have won that game/stopped that rally, if only Jeter would have gotten to that grounder?" I know that he gets to fewer balls up the middle than many shortstops, because I watch every game the Yankees play, and see him take three steps left and then watch the ball go into center. He also had an awful first half, booting and throwing the ball all over the infield. No arguement there either. I don't think that Jeter is the best defensive SS in the game, because I do watch more than Yankee games and see a bunch of .260 hitters smothering everything. (Yes, I do know that Reyes hits and fields, hooray for him!) What I do see from Jeter is that while he can be numerically figured out to make fewer of the plays that everyone makes, he also makes a disproportionately larger percentage of plays noone else makes.
Also, I still can not figure how someone so "terrible" wins multiple gold gloves, given the preponderence of evidence that so many SS play the position better. Do the Sabermatricians and Bill Jamesians have a better feel for the game than managers and coaches? One I can call a reputation win, but 3 including 2 consecutive?
Also, look at Deion Sanders. ( I am not sure about this analogy, but bear with me). Wasn't he an absolute shut down guy in pass coverage? But didn't he also lack any run stopping or tackling ability? Did it make Deion a liability? Couldnt you use in-depth stats to look at James' career and make the case that he was the worst corner in the league? I am sure you can come up with a comprable football analogy if you don't like this one..
Multiple gold gloves mean nothing. Don't you remember when Rafael Palmeiro got one for the umpteenth time although he was a full-time DH and only played 14 or so games at first that year? Every Yankee "fan" was up in arms complaining about the biased voters. I always thought of you as the kind of guy who would look at objective evidence over subjective opinions. If you want to be a good sports reporter (and different from the lazy fools who write for our local papers), you can't pick and choose facts to support the pre-conceived opinions you wish to express. You have to formulate your opinions on the facts.
Don't get me wrong here --Jeter is a great player and I respect him a lot. He's a consistently excellent offensive player who gives it his all 9 innings per game, 162 games per year. But the gold gloves are a complete joke and any knowledgeable baseball fan knows it. My defensive scouting report from watching Yankeee games (and you would be surprised at how much I watch): average arm; absolutely no range to his left; below average range to his right (that patented jump throw from the hole play is generally a routine play for any other shortstop and made to look spectacular by Jeter's lack or range and agility); excellent going back on pop-ups with above average range; very good going in on slow rollers with good accuracy throwing accross his body on the run. I explained not too long ago to a Yankee fan friend of mine who agrees with me that Jeter is an atrocious defensive shortstop that Jeter manages to fool the casual fan by appearing "gracefully slow" in the field, meaning that he manages to look good while not making plays. I think I hit the nail on the head with that assessment.
"I always thought of you as the kind of guy who would look at objective evidence over subjective opinions. If you want to be a good sports reporter (and different from the lazy fools who write for our local papers), you can't pick and choose facts to support the pre-conceived opinions you wish to express. You have to formulate your opinions on the facts."
When it moves from back and forth about baseball to what seems like a personal attack, the fun really goes out of it for me. Keep it above the belt. The type of person I am should not enter into a discussion about opinions on a shortstop's fielding.
But lets dig in some more...
- I suppose my real argument lies in my first statement. "How many games do you watch and say "Man, the Yankees would have won that game/stopped that rally, if only Jeter would have gotten to that grounder?"
I never argued that Jeter was a spectacular/great/pretty good fielder. But his "poor/awful/horrednous fielding" doesn't seem to lose his team games.
I agree with your analysis of his fielding. I think that the jump-throw will happen more often than not in the bigger moments, and not merely the second inning on a Tampa game, or a 14-2 blowout. I don't see where anything I have ventured comes across as preconcieved. I watch the games he plays in, all the time, and base my opinion of his fielding on his play, and the play of his counterpart on the other team. Arriving at an opinion based on observation doesn't appear to coincide with preconception and stubborn adherence to same.
What I do in this space is put out some opinions of mine. I posed many questions in my last comment, both to question your opinion as well as to inform my own based on your responses. What I got back was, in part, a knock on my lazy, pre-conceived, and uninformed opinion.
Again, I don't think Jeter is a great defensive short stop. I do think he plays defense well for the team he is on. I think that he makes plays that save games. i enjoy the dialogue, but try to keep it on baseball.
Dude, it was a compliment, not a personal attack. My point was that I believe that you are a person who will base his opinions on stats and evidence as opposed to subjective opinions which fans want to hear and that you have the intelligence and ability to do a better job than many in the media. I'm just trying to have a little fun talking baseball with you while attempting to challenge you to be objective when discussing the Yanks. Most of the media in New York either promotes the local team of its choice and covers them as if they can do no wrong, or takes cheap, unnecessary shots at them. A lot of the crap I've written are examples of cheap shots. You're smarter and can bring a different perspective.
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